From Wellness to Womb: Caring for BIPOC Families and Communities
Listen as Kimberly Porter, MSW, CSWA discusses what it means to be a doula, and how Community Doula Alliance (CDA) puts BIPOC families, individuals, and communities first.
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Ari O’Donovan
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For Community Doula Alliance and Doula Debrief podcast updates visit: communitydoulaalliance.com.
Follow CDA on Instagram @communitydoulaalliance.
Transcript:
Ari O'Donovan: (00:00)
Thank you so much for listening to boosting our Voices. This program has been brought to you by Boost, Oregon. You can find them online@boostoregon.org G.
Kimberly Porter: (00:13)
So yes, they're starting to realize and people are starting to ask. That's the thing that I really like about Community New Alliance. Said there's an ask. Now, you know, you can now ask for a black doula. You can ask for a doula from Mexico. You can ask for a doula from El Salvador that speaks Spanish. You can ask for an African doula that speaks Swahili. Not only can you ask what we can answer,
Ari O'Donovan: (00:34)
Welcome back y'all to boosting our voices. As always, I am your host, Ari O'Donovan, Oregon's Diversity program manager Ari O'Donovan. Today we're gonna be talking about a subject that is near and dear to my heart. Really, really special to me and I cannot think of anybody in the state of Oregon. Better to have as a guest to discuss it with me. Then Kimberly Porter, can you share a little bit with listeners about who you are and what you do? Kimberly?
Kimberly Porter: (01:04)
I am Kimberly Porter. I am the executive director and co-founder of the Community Do Alliance. I'm also a, what you consider a full circle doula. I'm a childbirth educator. I am A D E I consultant, infant parent, psychotherapist, just a community-based psychotherapist as well. So I wear a lot of different hats and since I've been here in Oregon,
Ari O'Donovan: (01:27)
So many hats. You doing all the things out here and I appreciate that. I love that. Now you have a history of educating and fighting for bipo families, for women, for black women, for brown women, families, people, just everybody. . Tell us more about that cuz I think that's really noteworthy.
Kimberly Porter: (01:47)
Well I think for me, just as a little girl coming from Virginia, I've always been around activists. My babysitter's grandson was part of the Black Panther Party. So you know, just, just really knowing like that I'm African American and that there's things that we have to fight for and rights and things are not equal for us. So I think as a little girl, just like watching him, you know, you know, reading some of the, the pamphlets and things like that, when I was 10 years old, I really was interested in fighting for something. So I think, yeah, so over the last 30 years I have worked at nonprofit organizations. I kind of was introduced to that when I was in college at Ohio State University. Some of the brothers from Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated were like having like things they were doing for the community, like they were coming to like low income housing projects and things like that and give food.
Kimberly Porter: (02:34)
And so I was really interested in that as a freshman. So I think I've always kind of been gravitating towards the African American community in particular, but like how to make it equitable. You know, what are resources that are lacking and things like that. But yeah, I think just the last 30 years just working at nonprofit organizations, really assuming leadership roles and working with the African American community in particular around education, around empowerment, really around liberation. Cause that's kind of where my foundation came from is that we really have to fight for the things that we want because we're not, we're a marginalized community. And so I just always knew that it always took the advocacy but also how to be smart about it. So educational academia was very important to me. Going to college, having dialogue and discussion around like strategic ways for there to be African American liberation and Black American liberation here in this country has always been a focus of mine since I've like really since undergrad, since my early twenties. Yeah,
Ari O'Donovan: (03:29)
Girl, that's such a long time. 30 years of nonprofit work, like you said, it ain't gonna be given, we have to fight for it. We have to advocate for ourselves in order to acquire just basic human rights and equality and equitable, you know, things given to us. So that's really, really important. And to have the education alongside that just makes it easier for you to advocate for the group of people that you really, really care about.
Kimberly Porter: (04:00)
Absolutely. I think as I look back, especially when I was in graduate school, I went to University of Michigan for social work. I mean I went to predominantly white organizations. I mean p PWIs institutions, should I say. So I think I went to learn the rules so I could break all of them . So I think that was my whole focus. Cause I knew that we, in order to be strategic, especially in this country, you need to know the rules. You need to know the, the games, you need to know how to set up businesses, how to set up nonprofits, things like that. So yeah, I think academics were very, very important to me. But I was very strategic because a lot of coming from, I mean I have a, a dual uh, bachelor's degree in psychology and sociology. So a lot of those theoretical frameworks, maybe in sociology there was kind of back in the nineties, some sort of framework and, and looking at diverse communities and equity and things like that.
Kimberly Porter: (04:45)
But it was very small. But in psychology it was, the theoretical frameworks were not really adaptable to my community. And so I've always looked for like black psychologists or you know, stuff that will come outta HBCUs and things like that. So I've always kind of had of a buffet style approach to my academic experience just to keep a little bit of this, take some of that, keep some of that. I was very strategic in learning all the different frameworks of how to work with people and then adapting to my community. But I also realized a lot of it wasn't even there. So some of it had to be created, which we'll talk about a little bit more of why I had the, you know, the co-founder of Community Do Alliance because over the 30 years it was things that were not there that needed to be in place and that I, inclusive voices needed to be represented. And I wanted to make sure that that was what this organization was about at Community Do Alliance.
Ari O'Donovan: (05:32)
That's crazy. Just right there, just you saying that. We are gonna get into that a whole lot more, but the frameworks were not even there. That shouldn't even be something that anybody has to look at and say, why don't we have things in place for black people? But it's like that, it's like that in so many departments of just American existence. So it takes people like you going out and creating those frameworks where they don't exist so that people can have access to needed services and have better outcomes for a variety of things. So now that we know a little bit more about that and we know a little bit more about who you are and your track record and everything, tell me what is a doula?
Kimberly Porter: (06:18)
So a doula is a non-medical professional. It's not a clinical person. So it's not a midwife. I know a lot of folks kind of get midwives and doulas confused. A midwife are just like a ob gyn. They're the ones that actually provide your maternity care, your plan throughout your pregnancy, and also the ones that are there to deliver your baby. A doula is, like I said, a non-medical professional. We provide physical emotional education, advocacy support. So we're there to provide, you know, comfort measures. We're there to go to your prenatal appointments. It depends, there's a lot of different types of, of doulas. But at community do alliance, all the doulas are considered community doulas, which are trusted members of the community, which is where we have more of a racial equity, racial linguistic equity lens. So we're matching doulas of color, doulas, English as a second language with expectant parents.
Kimberly Porter: (07:04)
So that's pretty much kind of standard what a doula, just even if you're like a hospital doula, a birth doula, labor doula, uh, abortion doula, like all those, they're different types of doulas, but primarily they're there to provide that emotional support for that birthing person. So they feel like safe, they'll feel like they are educated as they're walking into labor and delivery. So that's pretty much in general kind of what a doula does on all levels. But particularly at community Do Alliance, we are community doulas. That means that we've already have some sort of connection with our community. Either that could be the Latino community, the black community, African community, indigenous community or specific like four, five different communities in particular that we are an Asian community as well that we work with. So those are already doulas mainly most of them identify as women.
Kimberly Porter: (07:48)
And so they are, they did just work with their own community. So just kinda get that education and training, um, as a specifically as a doula. But they already have some sort of connection probably as a community health worker or a community education worker or or a peer support specialist or just grandma in the neighborhood. You know, that's probably already been there going to labors and births, just never called the term doula, but have actually been there as that birth companion throughout that, you know, the community's experience in life and things like that. So that's what a doula is.
Ari O'Donovan: (08:17)
I love that synonym too. Birth companion, that's so important. And a lot of people that are not part of Bipo communities and especially the black community might say, why is a doula important though? Wouldn't it just be fine to have you go to a hospital, you work with your OB gyn and that's really all you need. Why on earth would you need a doula? But it's more important than, I think a lot of people, especially non bipo community members know. Can you explain why a doula is so important for black and brown families and women and people?
Kimberly Porter: (08:55)
Well, I think if we look about act, the statistics. So if we look at the statistics, um, black women and and birthing people and indigenous folks have had a higher likelihood than their babies won't make it through the, in their entire pregnancy. They're also more likely to have preterm babies, low birth weight babies. And then also if we look at the birthing person or the mother, they're less likely to make it, you know, they may not make it through the labor and delivery. So if we look at the statistics, they're already, we're three to four times higher to have those outcomes in the African American community. There's also a history in the black community that we have been experimented upon. There's, you know, we talk about a Tuskegee experiment. There's there, you know, there's the Puerto Rican community, they were sterilizing women. So there's a history that this country has used black and brown bodies for experimentation.
Kimberly Porter: (09:40)
So the importance of a doula is the fact that, oh, first of all we gotta look at this is a com brown and black folks are coming into these hospital settings not trusting from the beginning. So I think that trauma that is presented, so having someone in the room that looks like you, that speaks your language is so important. And that's the foundation in the crux of our organization is that all of our doulas are representing someone for those particular communities. All of our doulas are of color. And like I said, we have some doulas that are bilingual bicultural, more bicultural. They've actually lived in their native country. They're not just speaking another language. They actually have their, the lived experience of being in that particular country. So we have doulas that speaks Spanish, we have doulas that speaks Swahili. We have one of our doulas that speaks French.
Kimberly Porter: (10:22)
We have our doulas speaks tagala. So they're actually from those communities, not only speaking the language like I said, but also having that cultural experience. So yeah, for brown and black bodies that are going to labor and deliver in these hospitals, there's trauma there. Last night we had, we meet with a lot of our community partners Now that this kind of covid has been uplifted, we've actually been able to go into the community and meet people. And so I've met with three respected parents and they're all brown and black. And they were talking about we're really scared. You know, they experiment us. They don't listen to what we have to say. I mean there's been so many studies, I mean a lot of it has been focused on celebrities like Serena Williams and Beyonce. He should not pull 'em like really around that level. I mean you can't get penny richer than Serena Williams, right?
Kimberly Porter: (11:05)
And so yeah, you get for her not to feel listened to and heard and she had a blood clot. And so there's this history, especially from black women and black birthing people, that they don't feel like they're being heard or their voices is being validated. And so a lot of times they're going into very scary situations and the outcomes don't look good. So that's why we're there. I mean in the African community, I've heard from African doulas, you never let an African person stay in the hospital by themselves, especially when you're labor and delivery. That's pre even knowing what a doula is, right? This is just having a body that looks like you in a space that's not historically been safe for us. And so, you know, we talk about sexual violence, we talk about racism. Before there was like, why are we having all these poor birth outcomes in the black community?
Kimberly Porter: (11:47)
It was really this kind of belief that there's something wrong with our D N A. It's not race is a risk factor. Racism is a risk factor. Exposure, constant exposure. We would call it racial battle fatigue, microaggressions constantly. That takes a toll on our mental health and our physical health. But in this particular case, it's just that we've heard over the years that if we match a medical provider or a doula with what expected parent had better outcomes. So there's research that says that it's just important even if we don't, like for me, I'm African American, I only speak English well, I speak French too, but I'm saying to speak English, but like just having my black body in the room with another black body where they're laboring just makes them feel safer that if something happens on my wa that there, you're gonna be there to at least advocate for me to make sure there's some eyeballs or something happens. And the fact that black folks have to even experience that to have to worry like you're at your most vulnerable point when you're about to have a baby. But to think that you might not make it to the other side and your baby might not make it to the other side. Like that's a really scary experience. So that's why we're in the room with our brown and black faces.
Ari O'Donovan: (12:47)
That is all just so necessary. You have layers and layers of specificity. It's not just we have one black doula that can service all people. You have different types of doulas from different communities that speak different languages. Some from the African-American community, the Latinx community, some people that speak English or French or Swahili, African languages, people that lived in a non-American, you know, country. And then are better able to serve people from that same country as well. I, I just, I love what you guys do because that's just fabulous to me. And I know that I deal with a lot of trust in what I do for work too. And bipo communities that trust is just not there. It's just not there when it comes to the medical establishment. It's just not there for medical professionals. And without having a doula, I just, I personally, I don't have any kids yet, but , I can't imagine having a baby without a doula by my side. It's just having someone there that looks like you, having someone there to tell you it's gonna be all right. I know you're scared, but we've walked through these steps. We've talked about stuff. I'm here to advocate for you when you cannot advocate for yourself at what will probably be one of the most, if not the most vulnerable time in your life.
Kimberly Porter: (14:18)
Exactly. And that's what we hear in terms of feedback. You know, after, you know they've had the baby, is that I felt safe. You know, or they feel more confident walking into the labor and delivery space. The fact that they know like all the, the statistics, right? That they know that or they feel like they're being heard. So I think the doula is kind of their presence there just allows them to feel more comfortable to advocate for themselves because we're not there to speak for them. We want them to speak for themselves. And that means having as much information as possible, knowing what the doctor is saying. And that's why as a, as a full circle doula, we're there early on like in their first trimester of their pregnancy. Cuz if there's any complications, you know, like diabetes, high blood pressure, we know that's gonna compromise the pregnancy.
Kimberly Porter: (14:59)
So it's just general nutrition and diet and just talking about things in their language that they understand and not feel like they're only understanding medical terms. Like we kind of be, we're kind of interpreter cuz I think people get confused when they say a person needs an interpreter as a black American, you need an interpreter too. There's, and that black doulas do that even though we're speaking English, it's a different way that we'll say things or our body language or we'll just look at each other that we know that our client is not safe or that they're trying to communicate something or that we need to ha we need to have the nurse step outside of the room because they're not feeling safe. So there's all these kind of nuances, these things that we have in our own communities that will dictate this is like pause, halt, explain that over.
Kimberly Porter: (15:39)
Things like that. So interpretation is very important, especially for community duals and duals of color and really being that liaison between the medical system and the client that you're working with. Their expectant parents, both parents now. And I think there's also a myth, I think there's a confusion between a midwife and a dual, but also that the doula replaces the partner. We do not play replace the partner we're, we have a community framework. And so we know community means auntie, grandma, dog, cat, everybody in in the family's part of that, you know, the family unit. So even though they may not be in the labor and delivery room, all of that history, all of that tradition, all that comes into the room. So we're not there. And that's why sometimes we like, I like to sit and talk to the partner too, to say this is what a doula is. Cuz once they know we're not there to replace you, like you're not gonna be in the back corner somewhere and we're just kind of focused on a birthing person, you're very much involved. And that may mean I may have to help you put your hand on your partner's back or help you learn, teach you how to do hip squeezes and things like that. So community doulas are about the family, the constellation of the entire family. And not just to replace anyone, we're there to enhance the experience for everyone.
Ari O'Donovan: (16:45)
Ooh, I love that we dispel and miss all day on today's episode because I show, didn't know that for the longest time the difference between a doula and a midwife. And I've heard so many people say, well what you need a doula for, you got to a husband that's that ought to be enough. And it's like, no, it's, it's, it's a supplement added on to that. It's something that's a doula's there to help the whole family because black and brown people, iPOC communities, we are very family and community oriented. We appreciate to have support from more than just one person. It's a whole family affair and a doula becomes like a member of the family to me in a way because you're providing a service that's very specific and it's very intimate in how it's done.
Kimberly Porter: (17:35)
Absolutely. My first doula client is 10, the baby is 10 now. And I still have conversations or you know, celebrate birthdays and things like that. So it definitely becomes an integral part of the family. And then I think with partners, people underestimate that you're gonna gonna know what to do. There's a lot, there's not, everyone likes to see what's happening to their partner to experience their partner going through pain, just all of it, you know, or blood or just, you know, all the things. So I think the doula is there to educate the partner as well. That's the different stages of labor, like finding that emotional support. So may maybe that what they need to do is just go downstairs and get some ice chips, you know, go outside of the room for a minute and just do that kind of stuff. And some just like, some partners wanna be up the front closer to the head.
Kimberly Porter: (18:17)
Some partners wanna be closer down where the baby is. So it just depends, especially in communities of color, there's a lot of extended family members that are gonna be in the room. I can't tell you how many mother-in-laws that have been in the room or grandmas or aunties, they come, I mean I know with, you know, as we're coming outta Covid, there's restrictions on how many people can come into the space. But back in the day, I know there, I've been nine people over at like, I've seen nine Somalia members in the room, you know, praying and and talking and things like that. So that's important as a community doula to be able to understand the family dynamics in our history is that that is, everybody's having this baby, right? One person's birthing the baby but everybody's having this baby. And so to be able to have those supports and be able to talk to everyone in the room and just kind of, it's kinda like being a hostess in a way.
Kimberly Porter: (19:04)
But the focus is still primarily always gonna be to provide that emotional and physical support for the birthing person. But all, everybody, you have to know everybody in the room. And that takes a special skillset as a community doula to be able to like if there's conflict or do you see there's tension, how to be able to move people out and you know, again, keep your eye on the person that's birthing because you need to make sure that they're not overwhelming and not stressed out. Because once their cortisol levels get high, then that could compromise their pregnancy, put them into distress, potentially lead them to a C-section or other type of interventions that may be harmful to them. And the baby, you have to be very skilled in a multitasker to be a community-based tool too.
Ari O'Donovan: (19:40)
You really do. And girl, I'm gonna tell you, when I was born, I don't believe my mom had a doula. In fact, I'm almost certain she didn't. My dad made the mistake of looking into the eye of the storm and he sure did pass out right on that floor. So if we had had a doula there, he may not have passed out and it would've been easier for both of my parents. So it's unnecessary, so necessary.
Kimberly Porter: (20:06)
Absolutely. And some communities do not feel like it is their place, especially if they're a heterosexual couple, that their place is in labor and delivery, especially African couples. The father will feel like my place is to make the money, to put the crib together to do those type of things. So therefore that's why you have more of the elders or women in the space and the, and the the, the, the father will be somewhere else doing something else. So that's been something that we have seen a shift in in terms of we encourage, in American culture, we encourage both parents to be in the room. But what I realize over the years is that when it comes to some of the brown and black folks, the fathers don't wanna be in the room because they just don't think that's their role. That's not been their tradition.
Kimberly Porter: (20:43)
And so, but I've had, you know, some of I kind of work with and say it'll be ideal. So I, you know, but again that's a skillset of the dual to realize all the different personality types, the cultural kind of traditions of who can be in the room, who can't be in the room, like how you express this. It's just a lot of different things. So I've learned a lot over the years, particularly with black families and African families of who needs to be in the room. And just because somebody doesn't wanna be in the room doesn't mean that they don't care. It just means that culturally they're not supposed to be in the room, they're supposed to be doing something else. Like everybody has a role to play and things like that. So that's been a learning experience, particularly like I said in the Somali, some of the Somali communities, um, and how they birth and it's different but then everybody kind of comes together once the baby's there. But during that labor process, that's mainly for just kind of a, a woman experience. Sometimes it's been that it depends. Yeah.
Ari O'Donovan: (21:30)
Right. And I can imagine that you really have learned a lot through all the years that you've been doing this and meeting new people, meeting new families. And I know that doulas, they are very multi-skilled people, but being a doula doesn't exist in a vacuum. You have to consider the larger external society. Especially when you start talking about how bipo communities and black people and brown people are so community and family oriented. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Kimberly Porter: (22:01)
Our organization was created in September, 2020, then we became a nonprofit. So I think that having a more of a nonprofit approach to this business, if you wanna look at it from that, as opposed to having like a for-profit, I feel like we are able to have access to more services. So yes, our organization is, is all doulas and it's, we do train folks and become a doula, but we also have the service side where we match doulas with expecting parents. So I think that having those additional services, because as we know as a community do, it's a trusted member of the community will do more prenatals and more postpartum visits. But it's also all our communities are very vulnerable. You know, they're melanated folks and so we wanna make sure that they have proper nutrition. So that means that we may have to provide other community resources like access to the food pantry, access to low income grocery stores.
Kimberly Porter: (22:49)
Maybe they're going through some type of mental health. Some of our duals are specialized in mental health and addictions. We have parents that are actually, you know, actively using why they're pregnant, even if it's just marijuana. I mean so just how that impacts pregnancy and outcomes and addressing anxiety and depression and things like that. So you know, they're bilingual. Maybe there's certain stories that they can't go to the honors, it's more of a ecological approach and we're looking at all the different support services that they may need, not just, yes we're there to support the labor delivery but because we're working with a very vulnerable community, especially when we work with indigenous and African Americans, we know that their birth outcomes are are you know, kind of comparably to whites very high, three to four times higher than they're not gonna have a good birth outcome.
Kimberly Porter: (23:31)
So therefore we need to make sure that all the things are in place or mental healths in place or nutrition, their diet if they have a preexisting condition like preeclampsia or diabetes or even I had a met with when the community yesterday, this lady, she's like, I already had this young girl was like, I already have depression and so I'm really worried about having postpartum depression. So being very knowledgeable so it's not just yes we're the doula and we're gonna help support you, but looking at the big picture of what is the outcome. So we want this kind of, and I just kind of thought about this the other day, a wound wellness, like we want you to be well from the wound, like from day one we want you to have a great fresh start. We want you to to be confident as parents.
Kimberly Porter: (24:08)
So it's not diet. Yes you have someone that's having a baby, but also you have someone that's becoming a parent, even if there's their second time. We want the whole family to be healthy and feel confident in coming into this world. So we need to have the community support on all different services and resources that are available. So I think that's why, you know, as a co-founder and executive director is to be able to kind of, that is our mission is to be able to improve birth outcomes. But from a holistic lens where we have nurses and just a system. So it's not just about that particular thing. But I'm also as in the leadership position that because we are dealing with sexual violence, because we are dealing with racism, that I'm on equity committees to be able to like talk to these hospital systems because people say the system, the system, the people are the system.
Kimberly Porter: (24:54)
We can make change within the system. And so I've always believed that that one person can make a difference or they can make a ripple effect to other people making a difference as well. So for me, yes, being able to sit at the table with other medical directors here in the city of Portland and talk to them about, this is what I'm hearing. This is a voice of the Latino community, this is a voice of the black community. People are not feeling safe. You know like all the kind of things that we're talking about right now to being able to sit at the table. And we've done a lot of work at some of these hospitals where they're actually listening to the voice because they're looking at the statistics again, race is ruled out, it's racism, it's bias that's affecting these poor birth outcomes. And so we need to be able to work collaboratively with these hospital systems and the community to be able to say what can we do to collaborate to address the issue. But the first thing we need to do is to acknowledge that there's racism in these hospital systems. It exists. And so until that's addressed, we can't move forward. We have to have a very anti-racist lens to be able to unpack this, to be able to address the harm that has been done and so there's no further harm.
Ari O'Donovan: (25:52)
Right. I really appreciate the holistic approach you have with your organization because I don't think there's another way to do it other than that. I mean just the knowledge when you are about to deliver a baby that your health outcomes and your baby's health outcomes may be significantly worse than someone who's comparable to you or not comparable to you, that's white. Just the knowledge of that going in to the hospital if you have a baby in the hospital is really hard on a person, is really hard on a black woman or another person of color that they just wanna focus on having the baby, you know, not having to deal with the knowledge of that information. It's just like you said earlier, the maternal death rate and associated other issues, it's really high. It doesn't even matter if you control for somebody's income bracket, somebody's level of education where they live, how many family members they live with, none of that. If you control for all of that, it's still really high. I mean it's like you said, if Serena Williams and Beyonce are concerned, it's a problem. It's a problem for everybody. It's not an issue that is just for one group of people. So I think that's important to have a holistic approach otherwise people will feel they're not really getting everything that they need.
Kimberly Porter: (27:22)
Absolutely. Holistic approach, disciplinary approach. Other providers. So yes we are duals, but we work with home visitors, we work with teachers, we work with early childhood providers, daycare providers, community health workers. Like it has to because I mean that's how babies are coming to the world. These are communities or organizations that have access to pregnant folks. And so that's why I just had got a call this morning for somebody in Clackamas that's looking, you know, we wanna partner with community do alliance because we have, you know, Spanish speaking families that are having babies and we're actually, they're on Hillsboro. So yes, they're starting to realize and people are starting to ask. That's a thing that I really like about community do alliance, is that there's an ask now, you know, you can now ask for a black doula, you can ask for a doula from Mexico.
Kimberly Porter: (28:04)
You can ask for a doula from El Salvador that speaks Spanish. You can ask for an African doula that speaks Swahili. Not only can you ask what we can answer, that's so huge to me because I've grown up in PWIs and I've not had people that look like me as educators, as professors, as doctors, as nurses, as dentists, as all the things, right? So it's like that has been my vision honestly for the last 13 years since I came to Oregon, is to have representation in all sectors. So people, cause I know how important it is when you, I know how I feel or how people feel as a therapist when I open up my laptop and you're like, you're black, you know you're African American. Like they'll stare at me for a long time and I'm just like, okay, well they're like, cuz you're black.
Kimberly Porter: (28:46)
Like thank you. Like I'm so excited to see your face. Yes, it matters. And the group that we talked to last night, this is a group of young women between the ages of 12 and 25 that have been sexually exploited and they're, a lot of them are pregnant. And they were like, we're so happy to have you because we're in these spaces. And they were like, one was black, one was Latina and was like, we feel safe just to have you to be our doula to navigate. Cuz a lot of 'em have been disconnected, they've been in foster care. So they've been really disconnected from their community. And to have someone that values them and sees them as a person of color to bring in ano a baby of color, like that's a huge thing. And so it's just important that we have what people have been looking for but have had to settle for. And now we have the answer to, yes, it's gonna take more than a doula to change racism. We know that, right? But at least within what we can do within our own discipline and our scope of service, we are added value to these families. And they're actually so thankful and appreciative of the fact that they don't have to settle, that they can get someone that truly understands what their experience has been as a person of color, especially as they're about to birth their babies.
Ari O'Donovan: (29:50)
Absolutely. And I don't even think that maybe one doula is not gonna be able to end all racism, but I think they can definitely be a driving force because it's just like what you talked about earlier, a lot of people think about racism, institutionalized racism, systemic racism. The system as this non-descript entity that has no name, it has no face, it does have faces, they do have names. People. People drive these systems and allow them to function. And it's been that way since inception. And the only way to dismantle something like that is to be the person that starts the change and encourage people around you to get on board of what you're doing. So we can make society a better place. And a lot of people may not even know you can request a doula that looks like you, that speaks your language. That's why I'm glad I'm having you on my show. Some people know that you can go to a community doula alliance and you can request a doula that looks like you, that speaks a language that you do. You have such a a right to have that and it's out there, it's totally available.
Kimberly Porter: (31:01)
Absolutely. Yeah. That's the whole vision and mission of the organization is to, you know, have an exceptional group of doulas that people can pick to support them through their birth experience There I was very intentional and I've been very intentional. We, I think we have over 20 right now. They may not all be on the website, but very intentional about who has been called. Cause I think when you are there to support a family, to bring their baby into the world, it's a very spiritual experience. And so it has to be a calling. You can't just be because you get paid, of course it's important to get paid. I've worked really hard for doulas to be compensated. But I feel like from those communities, or they have been had either their family member, somebody in the family has been a midwife or they've been very close to labor and delivery, the ones that have been chosen have been selected.
Kimberly Porter: (31:43)
So it's not just anybody can come and work for a community dual alliance because our mission is serious, right? We're trying to address a public health issue. We wanna be advocates, we want people that are not afraid to challenge the system, to challenge the status quo. We wanna have a very anti-racist lens. So it takes a special doula to be able to advocate and then also deal with their own trauma. I mean our doulas represent the same communities that are families that we're serving. So it's like having to not like a lot of meetings and conversations around vicarious trauma and how to not like trauma bond with your client, right? To be able to be there to support them through their experience. But who's the best person to be able to be that liaison that someone has already experienced it, that that knows how to navigate it.
Kimberly Porter: (32:23)
It's not just about being bilingual, but it's being, I don't know, by institutional or you know, like having the lived experience but also being able to talk to the physicians or medical professions in a way that makes them understand the client in a different kind of way that the client may never articulate for themselves. So it's a lot of different skills. So yes, definitely all of our duals are of color. You can look at our website, all these brown and black beautiful places, all their beautiful backgrounds and things like that. So they're proud to be able to have a space and that's why, you know, c D A was created was really because of them. I've been listening to the voice of doulas for the last 10 years. When I first came into this space, I didn't see a lot of doulas of color. I saw them kind of training, but I never saw them really moving the dial or actually having a practice or actually working.
Kimberly Porter: (33:10)
So I kept on looking around like, and I was like, you know what Kimberly, why are you looking around creating yourself? Like you have the ability, you have the skills, you understand systems, you've been to college, you understand Portland. So let's just, and that's what I've done. I've just kind of just done it along the way. So, you know, just had a great team of what do you all need? We need a doulas. I said, what do you all need? We need a safe space as brown and black doulas to be able to first of all get paid and to be able to have some sort of network of us that when we're like having kind of like a consultation time where you know, maybe they've had some challenges or difficulty dealing with a certain pregnancy and they wanna process it. So we need a brick and mortar space.
Kimberly Porter: (33:46)
So all the things that our doulas have asked for, I've made sure that I've have delivered on that promise because I have over the 30 years been in spaces in nonprofit spaces where we have not, our voices is not been heard. The services have always been going to us as people of color, but the leadership and the people making the decisions around programs and fundings have not been us. And so now it is. And so at least in this particular organization definitely is the representation is is very inclusive. It's not just, I'm having brown and black faces on our website and we have just equity optics that we tend to have here in Portland. But truly the voice of people of color, doulas of color. And I, I really gleaned to the voice of the Latina doulas cuz I don't speak Spanish, right? And I don't have a lived experiences, but there's the demographics are growing so it's important to have resources and things like that for Latinx families and Spanish speaking families in particular to support that. So yeah, so for me it's layers of things. The fact that there's an ask and we can answer the fact that the leadership is representative of communities that we're serving. The fact that our funders understand we have a very racial equity, gender-based, reproductive justice lens is very strategic, anti-racist and all of that. And so we're not just using those words to get funding, we're actually putting the work into action and our members of our organization demonstrate the work that we're doing.
Ari O'Donovan: (35:08)
That's amazing. And none of that is easy, especially to start it, to start it yourself and to get all of that off the ground and get people, funders, especially non-black and brown people, non bipo people, to really understand what you're saying. Cuz they don't have that lived experience. So they may see you talking about something like this and be like, well that's great, but that doesn't, I don't really think that's all important to get them to see how important it is to be able to be that person that's going to encourage them and get them to understand that that alone by itself is so difficult to do. And it's so important to be the person that says, I wanna get a group of world-class doulas to work for me and to be available to the populations that I really wanna do the outreach to, to thoroughly seek those people and to be able to make sure that they're getting paid.
Ari O'Donovan: (36:04)
Because I really am a strong believer in if the work is worth doing, it's worth being paid for. It's also something to have that lived experience. That lived experience is one of the most valuable assets I believe a doula could possess, is to be able to be part of the community and know, I know how to care for you during this time in your life and with this experience, because I've also had that experience or something very similar, you talked about earlier, working with sexually exploited populations. That is a very delicate group of people that you really need to know what you're doing when you're interacting with, when you're talking to. Otherwise they're not gonna feel comforted. They're going to feel like this is a fake situation and I'm not really getting the service I need. I'm not really getting the care I'm needing. And you have taken the time to actually make sure all of that is being done. That is so dope. I just love that. I really do.
Kimberly Porter: (37:04)
Yeah, everything about this organization has been in intentional and strategic and very thoughtful. Like I said, it took, I wanna say 30 years, probably 25 to really say this is the first organization I'm kind of taking the lead of in terms of founding. But in terms of like I've always looked and I've always been advocating why isn't this community's voice in pro? Why are we just using faces and not really, you know, focused on inclusivity? Why is that not, why are our voices being challenged? We're talking about our experience. Why do we have to constantly explain our humanity? I can't tell you how many black women across this country have not been listened to and the outcome has been bad medically because they haven't been listened to and they haven't been heard. And so now we're seeing the dial change. I think we're seeing it from an administrative lens with President Biden, Kamala Harris.
Kimberly Porter: (37:49)
Like we're seeing this black maternal health, our maternal health outcomes looking in a different way in terms of funding, in terms of education, in terms of prioritization. Like we have to, these demographics in this country are changing. We have to address the needs of black and Latinx folks. We just have to, we can't no longer the demographics are gonna force us to deal with it. Right? And we need to have a workforce to accommodate those folks that are coming in that are born. I mean just the demographics are changing so we're gonna have a browner America. And so we need to make sure that we have folks that can work with those communities in a way that keeps them safe. It is hard work. Yes. Cuz we're working with folks that have a lot of trauma and trauma does show up in an interesting way during labor and delivery.
Kimberly Porter: (38:32)
And so having the skillset set, like I said, we have doulas that are trained in mental health and addictions. We have doulas that have masters in psychology. We have a psychologist on our team at, so doula, I really was strategic in making sure, even when I was at the Black Parent Initiative and I created the first doula program for black women at Sacred Roots, sacred Roots doula program, it was making sure that we have folks that are not just a doula. Like that's not just your only profession, that they are community health workers. Because once they start working with this, working in a nonprofit is different in the community setup, right? It's just folks are, have DHS involvement, they may have Oregon Youth Authority involvement, they may have been incarcerated, they were coming with low income. All of our families are not all of 'em, but the majority, we are Medicaid billing hubs.
Kimberly Porter: (39:13)
Uh, most of our clients receive O H P. So just understanding that community within general in terms of in terms of class, takes a different skill set than it does if you're just a private doula. Really understanding all the things that come with that. Or being a single parent, you know, I talked to this young lady yesterday and she's this whole black superwoman syndrome. Like no, I had to say to her, let us help you. Why are you picking up stuff off the floor? You're 28 weeks pregnant. And so in her mind, but I'm, I see, I feel like I'm lazy if I'm not doing something, I don't want people to help me. So there's a lot of that we've had to deal with, especially in the African American community doing the postpartum period is a lot of these folks don't want us to help.
Kimberly Porter: (39:52)
They feel like there's something wrong with them or they're weak if they ask for help. We're almost sitting that's, you're very vulnerable. You have other children, we want to help you. That's what a doula does. We're there to help you with light dish work or help you pick something up if you had a C-section, like all those kind of things. But there's something still embedded in African American women that we have to be this super black woman and and do all the things. But what we're starting to see is that it's, it's taking a toll on our physical and our mental health. And so that's, those are things that are coming up. So, so yeah, just being able to know that I can talk to another black woman and say, I get it. I'm a black woman too. We're supposed to be doing all the things, but we have high blood pressure, we have diabetes , we have respiratory issues, we have obesity.
Kimberly Porter: (40:31)
Like all the things we need to like take care of ourselves and let somebody else take care of us. It's a lot of work. I'm not gonna say this is a easy job, but it's easier because I have a team of people that have been working with these communities for years. It's just adding a doula education is an add-on to what they've already been as home visitors or social workers or nurses or things like that. Psychologists or therapists or case managers actually. So yeah, so yeah, so the team that we have over at CDA is very dedicated and committed to this work and willing to fight to change things to make it better for their clients and our communities in particular.
Ari O'Donovan: (41:07)
And Kimberly, I have looked at community doula alliance's website and your people, your doulas and everybody. And it is, it's so refreshing to see all these black and brown lovely faces and there's so many credentials and you're a genuine person. So I know that the people you hire are also genuine people. And I think that that's outstanding. That is such an issue, what you talked about earlier with black women feeling like they have to do all the things and be superwoman all the time. That's historical and it is so deeply rooted in black society in this country. That would be a whole nother episode for another day because , I just couldn't even scratch the surface of that right now. But it's something that we have to work out of feeling. It has no place, it has no place anymore. We all need help at times. We all need, especially when you just had a baby, you're close to having a baby, you had a C-section, anything. We all need help that black women are not exempt from needing help. Mm-hmm . So I appreciate that your doulas have a strong understanding of that and you do as well.
Kimberly Porter: (42:20)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And if not any other period, let us take care of you, your postpartum period. Let us take care of you and take care of your family as you, you know, you just build a baby, you just had a baby so that was exhausting. So take a rest so we can have a, a longer conversation about that later about this whole super black woman syndrome. But it does play out and I wanted to mention that, that it does play out and that's why it's good to have us there to explain it's okay to rest. It's okay to rest sis, it's okay. Then they understand, they're like, no we got this. No you don't have to have this right now. We got this, you're fine. Just relax. And that's what I'm saying, the cultural rootedness of that, the historical understanding of what that means when I say sis, you can rest.
Kimberly Porter: (43:02)
There's something in English that I'm translating to another sister that somebody else that looks like me cannot translate. You know, just two words, cis rest, that's it. And so that's what I'm talking about. That's the importance of our organization is that we can have those language exchanges that means so much of the so powerful that can get somebody just to reduce their heart beat. Just to reduce their cortisol level just to relax because I know another person looks like me, got me and I don't have to be hypervigilant all the time. So that's a big part that is is so important. I think it's been missed. I worked in mental health organizations, I work in hospitals, I've seen it, but I just feel like brown and black voices are just minimized and they're not listened to. And I wanna make sure that that is reverberated like throughout our organization and that people are heard and listened and validate if nothing else, they'll say as c D A I feel heard, they can walk away.
Kimberly Porter: (43:53)
I don't feel like people realize how powerful that is because as a therapist I've seen the impact of what it looks like when you don't feel heard, when anxiety shows up, when depression comes up, when imposter syndrome comes up, when all those things come up. I sit in this chair every day as a therapist and I hear brown and black folks talk about what they didn't get and people don't listen to them. And I wanna make sure there's a difference. So why not better to start the wellness to womb right in the beginning when they first come out. That we are there to support not only their parents but we're support them and that they feel like they have a good fresh start as stuff comes up they'll be resilient to address those things. But when they're coming in already with medical issues, parents feel fragile. They dealt with racism. The baby didn't make it like all these things are coming up that just doesn't get them to a fresh start. So I'm looking at what could happen and preventing that from happening. And our organization has been in support to be able to make that happen. It's gonna take all of us, but at least we're trying on our end to make that difference on the front end.
Ari O'Donovan: (44:48)
All of it. All the aspects, all the things, all the moments and the experiences. Community Doula Alliance, they got y'all. I feel that they got y'all just not even a very long sense. That's a translation right there, .
Kimberly Porter: (45:05)
Yeah.
Ari O'Donovan: (45:06)
Yeah, I love that. And you've told me so many things about Community Doula Alliance. Is there anything that you would like to make sure listeners know that is unique that Community Doula Alliance does that other no other group is doing?
Kimberly Porter: (45:23)
Well, I think the fact that it's a black woman-led organization. We're the only black woman led doula agency in the state of Oregon. And I am that black woman leading this organization. So that within itself is powerful. The fact that I feel like we are a community. I'm not, don't have this, I'm the leader and so I, you know, have a dictatorship. Like I, this is a community, this organization was based upon our community voices as doulas. I just provide the leadership, provide the fiscal responsibility, provide the mission, and you know, kind of articulate the mission and vision of the organization. But I gleaned a lot of insight from our doulas from in there different generations. You know, we have some millennials, gen Zs, we have some one of baby boomers. We have a variety of different folks that are actually doulas and we have a lot of community support from folks that just really believe in what we're doing.
Kimberly Porter: (46:13)
I mean, our organization was created from a white doula family that basically gave me the seed money to start. They just believed in the vision of what we're doing. So we didn't have to go through the kind of traditional route that most nonprofits go through where you have to get a, a fiscal sponsor and all those type of things. It was just like I sat with this couple, they were one of the co-founders, they were the, the client of a co-founder of the, one of the co-founders doulas. They sat down and said, what would it look like if you could dream? That's what it look like. They're like, okay. So that's kind of how it started. And they, over the last two years, they've given us over $300,000. So it wasn't as difficult for me to get a fiscal sponsor. And they just really believed they had, they're a wealthy white family here in Portland.
Kimberly Porter: (46:54)
They could have had a better birth outcome but they, you know, did pretty well with their son. But they're like, I can't imagine what it would be like if we were brown or black. And so like we support your mission and you know, we don't wanna, you know, you have to jump through all these different hoops. We wanna make it smooth for you. And so they've always supported this organization. So we have other folks as well that are not brown and black folks, that are white allies that have said, you know, we know racism exists. We know outcomes are worse for you all, your community is for us and we wanna support you a hundred percent. And so they also said, we know you're not afraid to challenge the status quo and we are there to support 200% and they've done that. So that's to open up the doors for other major funders to actually fund us as well.
Kimberly Porter: (47:35)
And so that's kind of how Meyer Memorial Trust has been a great funder of ours. They just gave us money around gender-based justice cuz our organization is women led. And a lot of these organizations I think are giving us funding for us to establish our infrastructure because it takes a lot for, you know, culture specific or iPOC led organizations to kind of get started. And so we have been blessed to be able to do that. And I think it helps because I've been doing in non-profit, so I understand from the entry level all the way up to executive director in terms of systems, in terms of funding, in terms of all the things. So I think it's helpful, but for that leadership to come from someone that looks like you is important. And I've known people been asking for that in Portland for a long time.
Kimberly Porter: (48:18)
I'm authentically African American. I'm unapologetic about it. I am a woman. I represent diversity and inclusion. All the things I'm not afraid of change. So I think that's what makes us unique and everybody, like you said on our website is they're melanated folks. They're coming from their communities. And so the fact that we have that and we're representing it, just, I think it just makes us unique just within itself. The fact that we are the only organization agency that's led by a black person or a person of color, I wouldn't say person of color. Cause there's one of our board members in in Medford who's Latina, who's running their organization. But I feel like, you know, a black woman agency that's dual organization that's in in Portland makes us unique and it represents everything that we're talking about. So when people are talking about equity optics or diversity, equity and inclusion, we actually breathe that. It's not just lip service for us, it's represented in our leadership, in our board, in our doulas, in our marketing, in our website, in our Facebook, in our Instagram, everything about or organization has brown and black faces all over our brick and mortar space. So people feel like, yeah, you guys are walking to walk. You're not just talking to talk. Yeah,
Ari O'Donovan: (49:29)
That's remarkable. A black woman led organization. Like that's just unapologetically. So at that proud and unapologetically black, spearheading an organization beyond y'all Black Parade, Beyonce. . .
Kimberly Porter: (49:48)
Yeah.
Ari O'Donovan: (49:49)
I love that. I love that. And I know that listeners would be extremely disappointed. I would be getting emails about how disappointed people are if I didn't make this a two-part, maybe even a three-part episode cuz we got a lot more to talk about. This is just the, the tip of the iceberg. We have so much more to discuss and I wanna know more. I know listeners are gonna wanna know more. I just can't wait to get into even more, more stuff.
Kimberly Porter: (50:17)
I mean, like I said, I represent communities that have historically not been validated or listened to or heard. And I believe in the storytelling and there's a lot of stories that we need to tell. You know, we live in Portland, there's a lot of history around gentrification and lack of brown and black voices. So yeah, definitely have a lot to share more about, not only just in general, just kind of how we navigate and working in these spaces. How we maintain black women-led organization, sustainability, all those things that come up. Cuz we want this organization to always exist. I might not be in that leadership position cuz I'm, you know, becoming the elder. And so I want young folks to kind of take over and take that same tenacity and you know, just to be able to challenge things so it won't have to make it harder for someone that comes behind them.
Kimberly Porter: (51:02)
I wanna make it much easier. And I just wanna be the template to show that we can, you know, stand proudly in our, in our, you know, melanated ness I guess you could call it. And as women, as non-binary folks, as you know, birthing people, whoever we are, you know, whatever identity we have and that we should be able to have the same voice and respect that everybody else does. And so we shouldn't have to continue to fight for that every time. So I wanna be represent that template to be able to show that it can be done and we can be successful and we also can help our communities in the process.
Ari O'Donovan: (51:33)
Mm-hmm. most definitely. And I want y'all to be around for years and years and years to come. I want y'all to get funding on top of funding because y'all deserve it from one black woman to another. I, I really, I love what y'all do and you deserve it and I can't wait for the upcoming episodes. Kimberly, you're just a very fun person to talk to. You're very smart. You have so much to share with listeners and people need to know more. So I'm really excited for more, more episodes, more discussions. Can you tell listeners where they can learn about Community Doula Alliance? Please don't let this episode end without telling listeners about what you do on the side too that they can learn about and and maybe receive a service from you that way. Where can we find y'all? Tell us more.
Kimberly Porter: (52:25)
We have a brick and mortar space. Like I said, we're called Community Dual Alliance. We are located on 1820 Southwest Vermont, which is in southwest Portland. Our phone number is five oh three three three four four. We are also on Instagram, we're also have a Facebook. And our website is community doula alliance.com.
Ari O'Donovan: (52:47)
Wonderful. And I'm gonna put a whole bunch of that information in the description for this episode so people can find y'all. And you have a service that you do on the side. Can you share a little bit more about that?
Kimberly Porter: (53:00)
Yes. I have my own consulting business. It's called Kimberly Porter Consulting. So over the years I've been kind of a D E I consultant for different teams across the state of Oregon. Also outside of working in Michigan and Denver to kind of be the consultant for predominantly white teams as they try to integrate and have more staff. I've worked with mental health teams, I've worked with spiritual language teams. I've worked with some of these doula organizations here to really be very intentional about how to be anti-racist, how to recruit more folks in their organization of color and mainly how to sustain them. That's been an issue that I've heard across this, the state of Oregon, how do we bring in brown and black folks from across the country? It's easy to do that, but how to sustain them, how to make it safe for them to be able, and that's what I'm saying, inclusivity, their voice is heard and their listened to.
Kimberly Porter: (53:47)
So I do that on the side. Like I said, Kimberly Port Consulting, I've used my consulting business to teach doula's business skills. So I had a contract out in Multnomah County that I had with HealthShare of C C O of Oregon where I taught 20 women of color how to start their own business as doulas. And I just recently got a contract for Washington County. So it's mainly been around more diversity, equity and inclusion and talking about culture and race and things like that. I also am a psychotherapist. I work for Portland Mental Health and Wellness. I work part-time. So I have patients that are brown and black that experience trauma, depression, anxiety, A D H D, different transitional things, things like that. So right now my fully booked, but I know that there's a need. People ask for black therapists and so if anyone ever wants to reach out to me, I'm a part of Portland Mental Health and Wellness.
Kimberly Porter: (54:36)
Yeah, I'm not teaching right now. I was adjunct professor at PS at Portland State University. I was teaching infant toler mental health. I've taken a break from that right now. As you can tell, I've, I've kind of my cup runeth over . But yeah, that's a passion of mine as well as being a adjunct professor at Portland State University. Everything that I've done has been to have more diversity, have more representation. I've been, you know, blessed to have a lot of opportunities to be able to recruit people into infant toler, mental health, social work, doula work, anything like that to just really have a strong sense of business and in how to have diverse strings of income actually. So yeah, most of my roles have just mainly been to bring more of us in these spaces so it won't be so only white, it'll be diverse communities of us in working in these work settings, but also supporting organizations to make sure that we have the resources that we need to be successful.
Ari O'Donovan: (55:28)
Girls stop you out here doing everything all the time. You're doing all the things and all the ways and everybody should know all of the services that you have available in one way or another. One thing I did not hear you talk about though is that you have your own podcast too.
Kimberly Porter: (55:47)
Our organization, like we have the, the doula side. I talked a lot about that, about matching families and things like that. So we accept O H P, all the OHP we have, we're a Medicaid billing hub and then our dues also accept private pay. And then we also have the training side that we just got approved. Our curriculum just got approved from Oregon Health Authority as a traditional health worker training approval. Because conversations like this, we felt like my partner, Martinelli Bishop, who was a director in finance and operation and there's also Ali Buchanan, they actually started this. It was really allie's idea to have this podcast for us to have conversations like this invite guest speakers on, uh, from, from you know, diverse communities, talking about things like this, this, how trauma affects our communities, what are, what does it mean to be a community doula, all the things like that.
Kimberly Porter: (56:28)
So we have had six episodes. So if you go onto our website, you'll be able to listen to all of our different conversations that we've had where we've interviewed some of our staff. We're gonna have more. We kind of stopped there for a minute cuz things started happening a lot with these, matching these families. But yeah, having a podcast from a very diverse lens in what that looks like and just having a voice, a space for us to be able to talk about things that we talk about amongst each other. But we need to be able to push that out to the community, to the audience so people actually know that their voice is valid and they're probably experiencing the same things that we're experiencing in different ways and just really having topics and having brown and black voices to speak about it.
Ari O'Donovan: (57:06)
Girl, that's so important. That's what I do on this show. Amplify Bipo Community Voices. And I can tell you that there is a very serious need for more more of those types of podcasts. So I'm glad listeners can know about your podcast. Y'all go take a listen, follow, make sure you stay tuned for new episodes when they come out. Whatever Community Doula Alliance and Kimberly Porter are doing, y'all wanna know about . I'm tell you right now, that is just some stuff you wanna know about.
Kimberly Porter: (57:34)
Well thank you so much. I'm excited about what you all are doing too, that there is an actual space for Bipo voices and you're implementing those voices cuz you're like you said, it's much needed. We have a lot to say. We've been talking amongst each other and so we need to start like talking amongst the rest of the community. So what we're experiencing.
Ari O'Donovan: (57:53)
Definitely, definitely. And I know we have a whole another episode plan. I know that for sure. There may even be a part three. I'm really excited about it. I'm so amped up about that because this is, like I said in the beginning, it's such a special topic to me. I think it's so necessary and I just can't wait for more. So thank you. I'm excited.
Kimberly Porter: (58:13)
Yes,
Ari O'Donovan: (58:14)
Me too. Yes,
Kimberly Porter: (58:15)
I'm excited.
Ari O'Donovan: (58:16)
Thank you for joining me, Kimberly Porter. We'll put all of the information in the description so people can find you. Find Community Doula Alliance and it's just a matter of time until the next episode.
Kimberly Porter: (58:29)
Yeah, I look forward to it.
Ari O'Donovan: (58:34)
Don't be a stranger. Email us or send us a voice memo at boosting our voices gmail.com with your health related questions. Your questions may even be featured on an upcoming podcast episode. Follow Boost Oregon on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok. You can find all of our social media and our website information in the show description below. Until next time, thank you for listening and be well.